Attacks, attack skills, timing questions - Guild Wars Forums

Yaksha · Sep 01, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I'm an Assassin, dagger's have a hit rate of 1.33sec/hit. So assuming every 1.33seconds, I make a hit:

Using attack skills
If they have no activation time listed, do they take a normal 1.33sec to hit? For example, if I use Shattering Assult (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shattering_Assault) with lv12 stat. Does this mean my base damage will be 2 hits of 41 over 1.33sec?

If they have an activation time of 1/2sec listed... like Fox Fangs (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fox_Fangs). Does that mean it takes 1/2 seconds to activate, and then do damage over 1.33 secs? Or does it do damage over 1/2 a sec?

Attack skills and normal attack
I know that dagger mastery's dual hits and critical hits *replace* normal attacks.

What about attack skills? When I use Fox Fangs with a base stat of 12, does it do a base damage of 30? Or a base damage of 30 + normal dagger damage?

I know it's possible to critical hit when using attack skills. So if I crit with Fox Fangs, do I do 30 + (normal crit damage)?
Or is the crit damage calculated based on Fox Fang's 30 damage?

Calculating misses and blocks
In a dual attack, are misses and blocks calculated separately?

e.g. is it possible for one attack to hit and one to miss? Or is it either both hit and both miss.

What about attacks that do PBAoE damage like Death Blossom? Is the hit/block calculated by the primary target?

For example, say I have a Ranger and a Warrior standing side by side. I can't hit the Warrior because it keeps blocking.

I switch target to the Ranger, and start attacking the Ranger. When I get to using Death Blossom, it hits the Ranger. Does that mean it definitely also does damage to the Warrior? Or does the Warrior still have a 'chance' to block?

'per hit' energy gain
Firstly I have a weapon that is -1 energy, gain 1 energy per hit
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kens...terfly_Daggers

What is a 'hit'? If I use Fox Fangs, it counts as a hit?

If I use Shattering Assult (dual attack), does it count as two 'hits'?

If I use death blossom and it hits one target twice, and damages three targets around it twice, is that a total of eight 'hits'? Or is it still just two 'hits'?

Are attack skills 'attacks'
I use Flurry:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry

It says you attack faster but deal less damage. However the wiki page says this is only for attacks and not skill damage. So assassin attack skills aren't actually considered 'attacks'?

Also, since it doesn't affect skill damage. Does it affect extra damage from crit hits as well? If it does... what happens when I use a skill and it crits?

For example, if I have Flurry on, and I use Fox Fangs at stat 12. Base damage is supposed to be 30. If I crit, how is damage calculated?

**Marty Silverblade** · Sep 01, 2010, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Don't have a lot of time to respond so I'll have to keep this brief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

Using attack skills
If they have no activation time listed, do they take a normal 1.33sec to hit? For example, if I use Shattering Assult (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shattering_Assault) with lv12 stat. Does this mean my base damage will be 2 hits of 41 over 1.33sec?

IAS should all dagger attacks.

Quote:

If they have an activation time of 1/2sec listed... like Fox Fangs (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fox_Fangs). Does that mean it takes 1/2 seconds to activate, and then do damage over 1.33 secs? Or does it do damage over 1/2 a sec?

Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Because FF is a Dagger Attack, when it hits it will do damage. The set activation time means that the attack will take that long rather than the normal 1.33 seconds. The hit and damage will occur at the same time. I don't know why you're making a distinction between the two.

Quote:

Attack skills and normal attack
I know that dagger mastery's dual hits and critical hits *replace* normal attacks.

What about attack skills? When I use Fox Fangs with a base stat of 12, does it do a base damage of 30? Or a base damage of 30 + normal dagger damage?

Fox Fangs is +damage. It is added onto your regular dagger damage.

Quote:

I know it's possible to critical hit when using attack skills. So if I crit with Fox Fangs, do I do 30 + (normal crit damage)?
Or is the crit damage calculated based on Fox Fang's 30 damage?

Read this if you're really into the mechanics: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Damage from a crit hit is the same regardless of whether you're using an attack skill or not.

Quote:

Calculating misses and blocks
In a dual attack, are misses and blocks calculated separately?

e.g. is it possible for one attack to hit and one to miss? Or is it either both hit and both miss.

Don't know

. It should be on wiki somewhere though.

Quote:

What about attacks that do PBAoE damage like Death Blossom? Is the hit/block calculated by the primary target?

For example, say I have a Ranger and a Warrior standing side by side. I can't hit the Warrior because it keeps blocking.

I switch target to the Ranger, and start attacking the Ranger. When I get to using Death Blossom, it hits the Ranger. Does that mean it definitely also does damage to the Warrior? Or does the Warrior still have a 'chance' to block?

There is an important distinction to make here. You do not attack all targets in range. You perform a dual attack against your target (2 hits), then foes around that target take damage. You do not actually attack them so blocking has no effect.

Quote:

'per hit' energy gain
Firstly I have a weapon that is -1 energy, gain 1 energy per hit
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kens...terfly_Daggers

What is a 'hit'? If I use Fox Fangs, it counts as a hit?

Yes.

Quote:

If I use Shattering Assult (dual attack), does it count as two 'hits'?

Yes.

Quote:

If I use death blossom and it hits one target twice, and damages three targets around it twice, is that a total of eight 'hits'? Or is it still just two 'hits'?

As above, you don't attack the other targets, they just take damage. 2 hits.

Quote:

Are attack skills 'attacks'
I use Flurry:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry

It says you attack faster but deal less damage. However the wiki page says this is only for attacks and not skill damage. So assassin attack skills aren't actually considered 'attacks'?

What it's referring to is that the -25% damage only reduces the base dagger damage. Not any kind of +damage. So if you used Fox Fangs (+30) with Flurry on, FF would still result in +30 damage, not 23.

Quote:

Also, since it doesn't affect skill damage. Does it affect extra damage from crit hits as well? If it does... what happens when I use a skill and it crits?

Crit damage isn't distinguished like that. It is just a larger than normal amount of base damage. It will be reduced by Flurry.

Quote:

For example, if I have Flurry on, and I use Fox Fangs at stat 12. Base damage is supposed to be 30. If I crit, how is damage calculated?

See the link I posted above for damage formulae.

Stroon · Sep 01, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43

You can find most of the answers you're looking for on the Wiki. You can also go to the Master of Damage on the battle isles and experiment with a stopwatch. Get some Brass Knuckles for the tests. They do a fixed amount of damage, so you don't need to write down enough samples to get statistically significant results.

Dagger attack skills with no activation time take 0.75 seconds to activate, modified by increased attack speed buffs. Attack skills with an activation timer will hit halfway through the timer. For 1/2 second skills, it will connect after 1/4 second, and the animation finishes 1/4 second after that. This is easy to test if you roll a paragon and time Mighty Throw (3s activation). These skills are also modified by increased attack speed buffs.

Attack skills are also attacks. Most of the attack skills (including Fox Fangs) do +X amount of damage. They add a fixed amount of armor ignoring damage on top of a normal weapon hit. Crits only affect the base damage, not the damage added by the skill.

The two attacks in a dual attack are treated individually for hit, miss and block. The skill description in Death Blossom is correct: if it hits, target foe and all adjacent foes take X damage. If it doesn't hit, nobody takes any damage. Notice how it says that the adjacent foes take damage. It doesn't say that they are attacked. Hit the ranger and the warrior will take damage. Since he is affected by damage and not an attack, his block chance won't matter one bit.

Any time a zealous weapon connects, be it attack, dual attack or attack skill, you will gain one energy. This is easy to notice, because you see a pink +1 every time it happens. Shattering Assault will hit twice, and give you two energy back. As above, Death Blossom will also hit twice (two weapon hits) and give you two energy back. The "adjacent foes take damage" clause is not a weapon attack.

Flurry will reduce the damage of your normal attacks, and the base damage in attack skills. Flurry does not affect the +X damage of skills, and it does not affect damage of skills that do a fixed amount of damage. Critical hits do 1.4 times the max damage of your weapon.

Example, with Brass Knuckles, Fox Fangs and Flurry:

Base damage: 5.
Added damage from Fox Fangs: 30.
Enemy: level 20 with 60 armor.

Damage from hit without flurry: 5 + 30 = 35.
Critical hit without flurry: 5 * 1.4 + 30 = 37.
Damage from hit with flurry: 5 * 0.75 (reduced by flurry) + 30 = 33.
Critical hit with flurry: 5 * 0.75 * 1.4 + 30 = 35.

Enemy: level 20 with 100 armor.
Damage from hit without flurry: 5 * 0.5 (reduced by armor) + 30 = 33.

Yaksha · Sep 01, 2010, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Okay thanks for the long responses and the calculations Stroon.

I have tried the wiki but didn't find the answers I was looking for. Although the link you posted, Marty Silverblade, is very good. I think I'll go read that now.

You've answered all my questions. Sorry that I was a bit confusing regarding my attack speed questions.

What I meant about Fox Fangs was that, the skill says it has an activation time of 1/2 a second. I wasn't sure if this meant "This attack takes 1/2 to pull off", or "Fox Fangs takes 1/2 a second to activate, *then* you attack with the usual speed of 1.33secs".

Quote:

This is easy to notice, because you see a pink +1 every time it happens.

ohhh....

Now I feel stupid =/

I did notice the +1s, but wasn't sure what they were. I thought pink was like red, so some kind of damage. I haven't had that much time to test out the zealous daggers though. But still >.<

TheodenKing · Sep 01, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Thank you for reminding me how much of a headache assassins are.

IAS trumps.
Double hits happen. Crits happen.
Forced attack speed calculates before IAS, then IAS trumps.
When you are calculating all this damage, you are assuming a stationary target.

Desert Rose · Sep 01, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaksha

If they have no activation time listed, do they take a normal 1.33sec to hit?

Yes, if there's no activation time listed the attack speed of the equipped weapon is used.

Quote:

For example, if I use Shattering Assult (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shattering_Assault) with lv12 stat. Does this mean my base damage will be 2 hits of 41 over 1.33sec?

Normally attack skills deal the weapon damage plus the bonus damage of the skill used. Shattering Assult is a special case; it completely replaces the weapon damage you would deal normally with the damage listed.

Quote:

If they have an activation time of 1/2sec listed... like Fox Fangs (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fox_Fangs). Does that mean it takes 1/2 seconds to activate, and then do damage over 1.33 secs? Or does it do damage over 1/2 a sec?

If a activation time is listed it means the normal attack speed is replaced with the listed attack speed for that one attack; otherwise it behave just like a normal attack, i.e. it is influenced by an IAS.

Quote:

What about attack skills? When I use Fox Fangs with a base stat of 12, does it do a base damage of 30? Or a base damage of 30 + normal dagger damage?

I know it's possible to critical hit when using attack skills. So if I crit with Fox Fangs, do I do 30 + (normal crit damage)?
Or is the crit damage calculated based on Fox Fang's 30 damage?

I assume you meet the requirement of the weapon here.
Weapon damage is the listed damage multiplied with the boni of mods (i.e. customisation bonus) and boni/penalty for attribute rang.
With an attack skill you'll deal weapon damage plus the damage listed in the skill description.
Skills cannot crit, only weapons can. A critical hit is always max weapon damage multiplied with the square of 2. So a critical hit with an attack skill will deal max weapon damage * square of 2 + damage listed in the skill description.

Quote:

In a dual attack, are misses and blocks calculated separately?

A dual attack counts as two separate attacks, so yes, one can miss and one can hit.

Quote:

What about attacks that do PBAoE damage like Death Blossom? Is the hit/block calculated by the primary target?

Death Blossom only attacks the primary target, if it hits all foes adjacent to the target will get damage, regardless of what they were doing.
Whirlwind Attack (Warrior) will attack each adjacent foe separately , and therefor every foe has a separate change to block the attack.

Quote:

It says you attack faster but deal less damage. However the wiki page says this is only for attacks and not skill damage. So assassin attack skills aren't actually considered 'attacks'?

Most attack skills deal weapon plus bonus damage; only weapon damage is affected by Flurry; since the weapon damage of daggers is small compared to dagger attack skills Flurry is a good IAS for a Sin because you don't lose much but you gain alot.

Sep 01, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47	#1
Yaksha Academy Page Join Date: Jul 2010 Profession: N/R	Attacks, attack skills, timing questions I'm an Assassin, dagger's have a hit rate of 1.33sec/hit. So assuming every 1.33seconds, I make a hit: Using attack skills If they have no activation time listed, do they take a normal 1.33sec to hit? For example, if I use Shattering Assult (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shattering_Assault) with lv12 stat. Does this mean my base damage will be 2 hits of 41 over 1.33sec? If they have an activation time of 1/2sec listed... like Fox Fangs (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fox_Fangs). Does that mean it takes 1/2 seconds to activate, and then do damage over 1.33 secs? Or does it do damage over 1/2 a sec? Attack skills and normal attack I know that dagger mastery's dual hits and critical hits replace normal attacks. What about attack skills? When I use Fox Fangs with a base stat of 12, does it do a base damage of 30? Or a base damage of 30 + normal dagger damage? I know it's possible to critical hit when using attack skills. So if I crit with Fox Fangs, do I do 30 + (normal crit damage)? Or is the crit damage calculated based on Fox Fang's 30 damage? Calculating misses and blocks In a dual attack, are misses and blocks calculated separately? e.g. is it possible for one attack to hit and one to miss? Or is it either both hit and both miss. What about attacks that do PBAoE damage like Death Blossom? Is the hit/block calculated by the primary target? For example, say I have a Ranger and a Warrior standing side by side. I can't hit the Warrior because it keeps blocking. I switch target to the Ranger, and start attacking the Ranger. When I get to using Death Blossom, it hits the Ranger. Does that mean it definitely also does damage to the Warrior? Or does the Warrior still have a 'chance' to block? 'per hit' energy gain Firstly I have a weapon that is -1 energy, gain 1 energy per hit http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kens...terfly_Daggers What is a 'hit'? If I use Fox Fangs, it counts as a hit? If I use Shattering Assult (dual attack), does it count as two 'hits'? If I use death blossom and it hits one target twice, and damages three targets around it twice, is that a total of eight 'hits'? Or is it still just two 'hits'? Are attack skills 'attacks' I use Flurry: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flurry It says you attack faster but deal less damage. However the wiki page says this is only for attacks and not skill damage. So assassin attack skills aren't actually considered 'attacks'? Also, since it doesn't affect skill damage. Does it affect extra damage from crit hits as well? If it does... what happens when I use a skill and it crits? For example, if I have Flurry on, and I use Fox Fangs at stat 12. Base damage is supposed to be 30. If I crit, how is damage calculated?

Sep 01, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43	#3
Stroon Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Aug 2010	You can find most of the answers you're looking for on the Wiki. You can also go to the Master of Damage on the battle isles and experiment with a stopwatch. Get some Brass Knuckles for the tests. They do a fixed amount of damage, so you don't need to write down enough samples to get statistically significant results. Dagger attack skills with no activation time take 0.75 seconds to activate, modified by increased attack speed buffs. Attack skills with an activation timer will hit halfway through the timer. For 1/2 second skills, it will connect after 1/4 second, and the animation finishes 1/4 second after that. This is easy to test if you roll a paragon and time Mighty Throw (3s activation). These skills are also modified by increased attack speed buffs. Attack skills are also attacks. Most of the attack skills (including Fox Fangs) do +X amount of damage. They add a fixed amount of armor ignoring damage on top of a normal weapon hit. Crits only affect the base damage, not the damage added by the skill. The two attacks in a dual attack are treated individually for hit, miss and block. The skill description in Death Blossom is correct: if it hits, target foe and all adjacent foes take X damage. If it doesn't hit, nobody takes any damage. Notice how it says that the adjacent foes take damage. It doesn't say that they are attacked. Hit the ranger and the warrior will take damage. Since he is affected by damage and not an attack, his block chance won't matter one bit. Any time a zealous weapon connects, be it attack, dual attack or attack skill, you will gain one energy. This is easy to notice, because you see a pink +1 every time it happens. Shattering Assault will hit twice, and give you two energy back. As above, Death Blossom will also hit twice (two weapon hits) and give you two energy back. The "adjacent foes take damage" clause is not a weapon attack. Flurry will reduce the damage of your normal attacks, and the base damage in attack skills. Flurry does not affect the +X damage of skills, and it does not affect damage of skills that do a fixed amount of damage. Critical hits do 1.4 times the max damage of your weapon. Example, with Brass Knuckles, Fox Fangs and Flurry: Base damage: 5. Added damage from Fox Fangs: 30. Enemy: level 20 with 60 armor. Damage from hit without flurry: 5 + 30 = 35. Critical hit without flurry: 5 * 1.4 + 30 = 37. Damage from hit with flurry: 5 * 0.75 (reduced by flurry) + 30 = 33. Critical hit with flurry: 5 * 0.75 * 1.4 + 30 = 35. Enemy: level 20 with 100 armor. Damage from hit without flurry: 5 * 0.5 (reduced by armor) + 30 = 33.

Sep 01, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54	#5
TheodenKing Jungle Guide Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: DoA Guild: Dark Order of Retarded Knights (doRk) Profession: N/Me	Thank you for reminding me how much of a headache assassins are. IAS trumps. Double hits happen. Crits happen. Forced attack speed calculates before IAS, then IAS trumps. When you are calculating all this damage, you are assuming a stationary target.